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	<title>Comments on: Stop Sign Compliance</title>
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	<description>Cycling, traffic safety and legal topics; energy, transit and transportion economics</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 21 May 2012 20:01:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: azbikelaw</title>
		<link>http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/comment-page-1/#comment-14143</link>
		<dc:creator>azbikelaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 18:01:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/#comment-14143</guid>
		<description>List of statues that require a STRICT stop (complete cessation of motion), no if&#039;s and&#039;s or but&#039;s:

Right on red 28-645(3)(b) http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00645.htm
Plain-old red signal 28-645(3)(a) http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00645.htm 
Stop signs 28-855(B) http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00855.htm
driveway egress 28-856(1) http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00856.htm
flashing red signal 28-647(1) http://www.azleg.gov/ars/28/00647.htm 

The plain-old red signal law is widely obeyed, the other are widely disobeyed (conditions permitting, e.g. sight lines and conflicting traffic)

sort of but not really:
school bus stop, drivers merely need to not pass the stop sign.... if you slow down it&#039;s okay as you don&#039;t go past. http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00857.htm
Same idea for school crossings, law says stop, but what that seems to mean is you must stop before entering the xwalk; it&#039;s okay to simply slow down such that you never get to the xwalk when a kid&#039;s in it. http://www.azleg.gov/ars/28/00797.htm
some goofy stuff about RR tracks but that only applies to special vehicle types (school buses, hazardous cargo)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>List of statues that require a STRICT stop (complete cessation of motion), no if&#8217;s and&#8217;s or but&#8217;s:</p>
<p>Right on red 28-645(3)(b) <a href="http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00645.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00645.htm</a><br />
Plain-old red signal 28-645(3)(a) <a href="http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00645.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00645.htm</a><br />
Stop signs 28-855(B) <a href="http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00855.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00855.htm</a><br />
driveway egress 28-856(1) <a href="http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00856.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00856.htm</a><br />
flashing red signal 28-647(1) <a href="http://www.azleg.gov/ars/28/00647.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.azleg.gov/ars/28/00647.htm</a> </p>
<p>The plain-old red signal law is widely obeyed, the other are widely disobeyed (conditions permitting, e.g. sight lines and conflicting traffic)</p>
<p>sort of but not really:<br />
school bus stop, drivers merely need to not pass the stop sign&#8230;. if you slow down it&#8217;s okay as you don&#8217;t go past. <a href="http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00857.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/28/00857.htm</a><br />
Same idea for school crossings, law says stop, but what that seems to mean is you must stop before entering the xwalk; it&#8217;s okay to simply slow down such that you never get to the xwalk when a kid&#8217;s in it. <a href="http://www.azleg.gov/ars/28/00797.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.azleg.gov/ars/28/00797.htm</a><br />
some goofy stuff about RR tracks but that only applies to special vehicle types (school buses, hazardous cargo)</p>
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		<title>By: azbikelaw</title>
		<link>http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/comment-page-1/#comment-13053</link>
		<dc:creator>azbikelaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2012 00:26:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/#comment-13053</guid>
		<description>Thread from &lt;a href=&quot;http://knowledge.fhwa.dot.gov/cops/opspublic.nsf/discussionDisplay?Open&amp;id=B4E2E1248082272D8525748D00665CA9&amp;Group=Signs&amp;tab=DISCUSSION#B4E2E1248082272D8525748D00665CA9&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;knowledge.fhwa.dot.gov&lt;/a&gt; discussion group:
Re: national project to support appropriate recognition of yield control
Dwight Kingsbury 07/21/2008
It&#039;s no secret that many low-volume, nominally &quot;stop-controlled&quot; intersections in the US operate effectively (more or less) as yield-controlled intersections.  Drivers on the stop-controlled approaches reduce speed to about 5-10 mph, scan for conflicting traffic, but tend to stop only when potentially conflicting traffic is visible....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thread from <a href="http://knowledge.fhwa.dot.gov/cops/opspublic.nsf/discussionDisplay?Open&#038;id=B4E2E1248082272D8525748D00665CA9&#038;Group=Signs&#038;tab=DISCUSSION#B4E2E1248082272D8525748D00665CA9" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">knowledge.fhwa.dot.gov</a> discussion group:<br />
Re: national project to support appropriate recognition of yield control<br />
Dwight Kingsbury 07/21/2008<br />
It&#8217;s no secret that many low-volume, nominally &#8220;stop-controlled&#8221; intersections in the US operate effectively (more or less) as yield-controlled intersections.  Drivers on the stop-controlled approaches reduce speed to about 5-10 mph, scan for conflicting traffic, but tend to stop only when potentially conflicting traffic is visible&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: azbikelaw</title>
		<link>http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/comment-page-1/#comment-9265</link>
		<dc:creator>azbikelaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Aug 2011 03:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/#comment-9265</guid>
		<description>The book reference sounds really interesting; but i can’t find it googling around… i do see this paper, The &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1805999/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Psychology of Drivers&lt;/a&gt;.
Its full text is there, and the author, a Herbert Stack, quotes from Brody’s book and appears to have been a collaborator with him on other work. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.howwedrive.com/2011/07/11/problem-drivers-are-problem-people/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Tom Vanderbilt&lt;/a&gt; pulled out this quote:
&quot;problem drivers are problem people; or rather, people with problems, including problems of which they often are not aware&quot;

Here&#039;s an oldie but maybe a goodie? &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1551238/?tool=pubmed&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Driver Behavior and Accidents&lt;/a&gt; Jean K. Boek
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The book reference sounds really interesting; but i can’t find it googling around… i do see this paper, The <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1805999/" rel="nofollow">Psychology of Drivers</a>.<br />
Its full text is there, and the author, a Herbert Stack, quotes from Brody’s book and appears to have been a collaborator with him on other work. <a href="http://www.howwedrive.com/2011/07/11/problem-drivers-are-problem-people/" rel="nofollow">Tom Vanderbilt</a> pulled out this quote:<br />
&#8220;problem drivers are problem people; or rather, people with problems, including problems of which they often are not aware&#8221;</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s an oldie but maybe a goodie? <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1551238/?tool=pubmed" rel="nofollow">Driver Behavior and Accidents</a> Jean K. Boek</p>
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		<title>By: Do drivers stop at stop signs? @ Arizona Bike Law Blog</title>
		<link>http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/comment-page-1/#comment-7501</link>
		<dc:creator>Do drivers stop at stop signs? @ Arizona Bike Law Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Apr 2011 22:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/#comment-7501</guid>
		<description>[...] Stop Sign Compliance for discussion and links to some social research studies that offer some explanations. In social [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Stop Sign Compliance for discussion and links to some social research studies that offer some explanations. In social [...]</p>
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		<title>By: azbikelaw</title>
		<link>http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/comment-page-1/#comment-2413</link>
		<dc:creator>azbikelaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 00:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/#comment-2413</guid>
		<description>some pedestrian fatalities in late 2009 have caused a ruckus in Philadelphia, covered in Bob Mionske’s blog: &lt;a href=&quot;http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadrights/2009/12/21/phillys-pushback/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Philly Pushback&lt;/a&gt;. In any event, someone there produced a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpRfUh1Dzlw&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;youtube&lt;/a&gt; video from Philadelphia showing the almost complete lack of compliance at a stop sign</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>some pedestrian fatalities in late 2009 have caused a ruckus in Philadelphia, covered in Bob Mionske’s blog: <a href="http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadrights/2009/12/21/phillys-pushback/" rel="nofollow">Philly Pushback</a>. In any event, someone there produced a <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpRfUh1Dzlw" rel="nofollow">youtube</a> video from Philadelphia showing the almost complete lack of compliance at a stop sign</p>
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		<title>By: azbikelaw</title>
		<link>http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/comment-page-1/#comment-2412</link>
		<dc:creator>azbikelaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 00:25:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/#comment-2412</guid>
		<description>I stole this comment from a comment over at  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/stop-sign-behavior-motorists-v-bicyclists/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;TBL&lt;/a&gt; ...

#  bb Says:
January 8th, 2010 at 12:18 am

Very passionate about this subject.

Here is a T intersection same thing going on
http://www.youtube.com/bodybait#p/u/45/RGA3YhfsHhY

Here is a No right turn on red
http://www.youtube.com/bodybait#p/u/44/im9ljMc2S0k

Here is my article on the subject
http://acyclist.wordpress.com/2009/12/24/stop-signs-and-stop-lights/

“Yet it baffles me why we can’t change this law to reflect laws already in place. It is okay for a cyclist to use their own judgment when or when not to ride to the right. Yet when coming to a stop sign or stop light suddenly they can’t use their own judgment?”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I stole this comment from a comment over at  <a href="http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/stop-sign-behavior-motorists-v-bicyclists/" rel="nofollow">TBL</a> &#8230;</p>
<p>#  bb Says:<br />
January 8th, 2010 at 12:18 am</p>
<p>Very passionate about this subject.</p>
<p>Here is a T intersection same thing going on<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/bodybait#p/u/45/RGA3YhfsHhY" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/bodybait#p/u/45/RGA3YhfsHhY</a></p>
<p>Here is a No right turn on red<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/bodybait#p/u/44/im9ljMc2S0k" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/bodybait#p/u/44/im9ljMc2S0k</a></p>
<p>Here is my article on the subject<br />
<a href="http://acyclist.wordpress.com/2009/12/24/stop-signs-and-stop-lights/" rel="nofollow">http://acyclist.wordpress.com/2009/12/24/stop-signs-and-stop-lights/</a></p>
<p>“Yet it baffles me why we can’t change this law to reflect laws already in place. It is okay for a cyclist to use their own judgment when or when not to ride to the right. Yet when coming to a stop sign or stop light suddenly they can’t use their own judgment?”</p>
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		<title>By: Incidence of Pedestrian and Bicyclist Crashes by Hybrid Electric Passenger Vehicles @ Arizona Bike Law Blog</title>
		<link>http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/comment-page-1/#comment-2174</link>
		<dc:creator>Incidence of Pedestrian and Bicyclist Crashes by Hybrid Electric Passenger Vehicles @ Arizona Bike Law Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 23:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/#comment-2174</guid>
		<description>[...] Has a bunch of interesting tidbits. It&#8217;s obviously leading or suggesting that quieter motorvehicles, particularly at low speeds whre tire noise would be less significant, have a tendency to not be heard by cyclists or peds thus leading to more crashes. Well maybe. Difference may explain some human behavioral factors of operators of bicycles; such as why cyclists rarely make a complete stop, yet rarely get seriously injured in those situations. (Motorist, too, rarely stop but that&#8217;s another story) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Has a bunch of interesting tidbits. It&#8217;s obviously leading or suggesting that quieter motorvehicles, particularly at low speeds whre tire noise would be less significant, have a tendency to not be heard by cyclists or peds thus leading to more crashes. Well maybe. Difference may explain some human behavioral factors of operators of bicycles; such as why cyclists rarely make a complete stop, yet rarely get seriously injured in those situations. (Motorist, too, rarely stop but that&#8217;s another story) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Post</title>
		<link>http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/comment-page-1/#comment-845</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Post</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:26:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/#comment-845</guid>
		<description>I am in favor of the stop sign being treated as a yield sign for cyclists.  Cyclists have a heightened awareness and unobstructed view (no blind spots) of interesections and tend to know when there are vehicles present or not.  

Cyclists have the added burden of unclipping shoes to put a foot down, then sometimes fumbling during re-clip when starting up in the intersection.  By not unclipping, a cyclist can put their attention on the intersection where it belongs and not on their equipment.

Cyclists may tend to use more major artories rather than neighborhood roads because of the excessive use of stopsigns in the neighborhoods.  This effects the flow of traffic.

Cyclists have to unclip several times in a round about that has stop signs, thus making it overly burdensom to negotiate.  The City of Tucson is implementing a poliy of establishing Yield signs (see Tom Thivener, Tucson DOT BIke/Ped Coordinator) so as to relieve this problem.  However retrofit is very costly.  This new law alleviates the cost of retrofit.

I disagree with the above blog that there is no guidance of what to do after a stop.  ARS 28-855 requires a motorist to remain stopped and not proceed until safe to do so.  Thus the motorist who stops must also yield.  That is all we are asking of cylists.

An automobile driver does not have to open a door and put a foot down on the roadway when stopping so it is less burdensom to auto drivers.

A 150 hp engine produces about 100,000 watts of power.  The average cyclist produces about 100 watts of power.  Thus starting up is very taxing to a cyclist and not so to a motorist.

Cyclists run the risk of falling over if they cannot unclip fast enough at a stop sign.  50 % of bicyclist crashes are single rider crashes at 0 mph (falling over).  Helmets are made for the fall over crash and not made for other types of crashes simply because that is the most common.  This law will reduce rider crashes from falling over and may lead to better helmet technology if the demand for a different kind of protection increases (i.e., helmets that try to work for higher speed collisions if that is the majority of crash data left after this new law goes into effect.)

The new law does not promote wild and improper treatment of stop signs because of the prima facia evidence burden shifting language.  A yield is still required.

Do pedestrians have to stop at stop signs?  Maybe.  They don&#039;t.  They only stop when traffic is present.  Shouldn&#039;t slow moving cyclists be treated similarly to slow moving pedestrians in this situation? 

Again, I am in favor of Dan Patterson&#039;s proposal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am in favor of the stop sign being treated as a yield sign for cyclists.  Cyclists have a heightened awareness and unobstructed view (no blind spots) of interesections and tend to know when there are vehicles present or not.  </p>
<p>Cyclists have the added burden of unclipping shoes to put a foot down, then sometimes fumbling during re-clip when starting up in the intersection.  By not unclipping, a cyclist can put their attention on the intersection where it belongs and not on their equipment.</p>
<p>Cyclists may tend to use more major artories rather than neighborhood roads because of the excessive use of stopsigns in the neighborhoods.  This effects the flow of traffic.</p>
<p>Cyclists have to unclip several times in a round about that has stop signs, thus making it overly burdensom to negotiate.  The City of Tucson is implementing a poliy of establishing Yield signs (see Tom Thivener, Tucson DOT BIke/Ped Coordinator) so as to relieve this problem.  However retrofit is very costly.  This new law alleviates the cost of retrofit.</p>
<p>I disagree with the above blog that there is no guidance of what to do after a stop.  ARS 28-855 requires a motorist to remain stopped and not proceed until safe to do so.  Thus the motorist who stops must also yield.  That is all we are asking of cylists.</p>
<p>An automobile driver does not have to open a door and put a foot down on the roadway when stopping so it is less burdensom to auto drivers.</p>
<p>A 150 hp engine produces about 100,000 watts of power.  The average cyclist produces about 100 watts of power.  Thus starting up is very taxing to a cyclist and not so to a motorist.</p>
<p>Cyclists run the risk of falling over if they cannot unclip fast enough at a stop sign.  50 % of bicyclist crashes are single rider crashes at 0 mph (falling over).  Helmets are made for the fall over crash and not made for other types of crashes simply because that is the most common.  This law will reduce rider crashes from falling over and may lead to better helmet technology if the demand for a different kind of protection increases (i.e., helmets that try to work for higher speed collisions if that is the majority of crash data left after this new law goes into effect.)</p>
<p>The new law does not promote wild and improper treatment of stop signs because of the prima facia evidence burden shifting language.  A yield is still required.</p>
<p>Do pedestrians have to stop at stop signs?  Maybe.  They don&#8217;t.  They only stop when traffic is present.  Shouldn&#8217;t slow moving cyclists be treated similarly to slow moving pedestrians in this situation? </p>
<p>Again, I am in favor of Dan Patterson&#8217;s proposal.</p>
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		<title>By: Arizona Bike Law Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Why I support "Bikes safe at stop signs"</title>
		<link>http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/comment-page-1/#comment-818</link>
		<dc:creator>Arizona Bike Law Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Why I support "Bikes safe at stop signs"</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:41:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/#comment-818</guid>
		<description>[...] vast majority of motor vehicle operators do not come to a complete stop at stop signs (ed note: see Stop sign compliance for more on this issue) or when turning right on red unless traffic conditions dictate that they [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] vast majority of motor vehicle operators do not come to a complete stop at stop signs (ed note: see Stop sign compliance for more on this issue) or when turning right on red unless traffic conditions dictate that they [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Arizona Bike Law Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Bicycle Legislation Introduced</title>
		<link>http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/comment-page-1/#comment-817</link>
		<dc:creator>Arizona Bike Law Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Bicycle Legislation Introduced</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:11:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://azbikelaw.org/blog/stop-sign-compliance/#comment-817</guid>
		<description>[...] Arizona Bike Law Blog       &#171; Stop Sign Compliance [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Arizona Bike Law Blog       &laquo; Stop Sign Compliance [...]</p>
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